Implications of Heaven(and Hell)

When all is said and done, there’s often alot more sayin’ than doin’.

Do we REALLY examine the implications of the beliefs we cling to? Many heaven believers also believe in an eternal hell (after all its what they were “saved” from) .

But what are the Implications?

1st:  eternal divine ignorance.

If I could barely enjoy a wedding knowing that boys were outside torturing a frog, how could i enjoy “perfect joy” in eternity knowing that torture of a daughter or an uncle was going on at the same time?

What mother can enjoy a holiday at the beach when even one of her children has disappeared ? or worse, known to be held as a prisoner and being abused daily?

In heaven, we’re told, we’ll  be blissfully ignorant of the suffering of the damned. We won’t miss our children, or even think about them we’ll be too enraptured with “joy”

“Heavenly joy will be a state of ignorance”, we’ll be like babes snuggled and suckling at the breast of ones mother unaware of any sorrow or pain. So heaven will erase the love we now have for the damned.

the implications of this explanation are that in heaven we will know LESS than we know now. knowledge of truth will be kept from us.

2nd: eternal divine knowledge

Believers might be reassured, “we shall know as we are now known” . In other words, we are now humanly ignorant, but eternal damnation will make a lot more sense once we’re  saints enjoying heaven.

Whether its an enemy, a friend, or even a son or daughter suffering, knowledge of their eternal damnation will be “okay”. But what in heaven is simply Okay? In Heavens blissful state, Hell will give us overwhelming  joy knowing Gods justice is being served, even if its upon a child we raised. Its the price of having “free will”.

Enlightened with full knowledge, we’ll “agree with God”, that even though we raised that child, or had that mother, they’re getting what they deserve for not having  proper belief of the sacrifice offered for their sins.

We are in bliss, they are in hell…but Its the price of human beings owning true freedom to love without compulsion. Their eternal torture, in a way, insured my eternal bliss.

I have a serious problem with the implications of either theological explanation proposed….and i hope any reader here would also.



19 responses

  1. This post is filled with the type of knowledge we all should practice. That being examining our faith and what has been taught to us as a “divine” truth. If I follow this type of belief that the Christian church is founded on then according to my mother, I am damned to the lowest most fiery parts of hell for believing and living according to the culture of my people. Her explanation of my daughter’s death was that because my daughter followed my pagan beliefs so it is my fault she died at 6 1\2 years of age due to terminal brain cancer. It was, according to her, God’s way of trying to smarten me up. Yet my mother claims in her blissful and hateful ignorance that she is a devout Christian destined to be seated at the right hand of God. During the years I studied the bible to see what it contained, nowhere did I see that a mother should act in this manner. This isn’t Christian, heck it isn’t even Godly. Yet because I believe in my culture, I can honor my mother, as an upstanding Mohawk man can and should.

    May 27, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    • wow…The kind of indoctrination your mother’s held hostage to is actually sad. Its the very thing that i try to expose . But people who believe in such a god also believe that any other way of thinking is an influence of “the Devil”. So these kinds of Christians are kind of trapped. They can’t question their theology without a fear of the possibility of being persuaded by the “dark side”. Makes for an airtight fear-based Religion, but is a total affront to any search for whats “really real.”

      May 27, 2013 at 3:20 pm

  2. You make good points. I have also come to believe that the doctrine of hell is not compatible with the gospel. I wrote an essay on it which is on my blog – pretty long and boring, I’m afraid – and it resulted in our being “shown the door” in the church we were part of at that time. It is strange how emotionally attached to the idea of hell many Christians have become, as if it were an admirable idea. In any case I agree with your objections to the idea, and you stated them very clearly.

    May 27, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    • I’m glad to hear that Caroll. Actually ,my dad,who is such a strong intellectual and also a devoted Christian and elder in his church doesn’t believe in hell either. My mom told me that! The concepts of grace and eternal punishment are just mutually exclusive.

      May 27, 2013 at 3:25 pm

  3. Listening to a televangelist one evening when I was out travelling and staying at a hotel, I heard this guy, can’t remember his name right now although he is a popular evangelist proudly proclaim that Hell was heavens junkyard. He proudly pounded the pulpit asking his congregation whether they were going to be presents for the king of Kings or garbage headed for the junkyard of junkyards. Unreal.

    May 27, 2013 at 4:16 pm

  4. I like how you’ve explored the points of view to the extent that it reveals the idiocracy of the belief.

    My “belief” if it could be called that, was fear-based and I got rid of it when I was about 15. My parents (Cristians) kicked me out of the house. The first family I lived with were Atheists. Their house was filled with peace and they actually communicated with their children.

    My epic moment was when I finally got the balls to cuss the “Devil” out. I screamed at “him” a flurry of nasty words. Guess what happened to me in return? Nothing.

    Then I did the same thing to “God”. Same result: Nothing.

    If there is a God, he would be more like Nature—filled with the love of Being, which does not mean being human and caring about all the stuff that human beings care about.

    Thanks for posting, Unk. I like these discussions. They make my blood get hot.

    May 27, 2013 at 4:17 pm

    • kweh kweh Mike!
      glad to hear FROM you! and I’m so glad you were able to shed the fear and get those toothy religious traps off your ankle!
      speaking of traps…you know animals make the most un-animal sounds when they are caught in a trap. I was out exploring woods as I do every Christmas morning as i figure all the paranoid landowners are home opening presents,
      and after a few miles I heard a terrible sound. it was my own dog! our husky had got its foot in a bobcat trap. It was difficult to get it off her foot, she kept panicking and biting me as i was trying to rescue her.
      When i finally had her foot free she walked off to sniff something else acting as if nothing terrible ever had happened to her. Sometimes its like that with people, they claw and scratch when you try to help em out,and when they finally are free ……..they forget about their captivity in their enjoyment of present freedoms…which is ok by me.
      hope to hear more from you!

      May 27, 2013 at 4:48 pm

  5. the warrior artisan

    kia ora cuz, yeah interesting korero brutha, religion and faith, two separate things maybe, christian fear of doing wrong by your god is a pretty powerful thing, excellent tool of control. to add restrictive rules to a religion as punishment for not following the guide lines is pretty harsh, mind you as humans we have always had guide lines in belief systems sinse oposible thumbs were discovered. but they were put to keep us safe keep us happy and content, and if we broke those guidelines it usually ment fighting, war, murder and savagerybut hey thats the nature of the human being. were just clever animals at the end of the day. I think faith is good, religion and belief is good, rules and structure is helpful. The church is great for get togethers a great place to share happiness and joy BUT the fear, and the will of evil men to enforce fear in a place or book(rule book) is BAD, bad bad bad, makes me sad, a bad sad.control of the masses a flock of worker bee sheep. that do as their told when they are told or else you know brimstone fire all that kinda thing. i have nothing against religion, its when evil minded men and women enforce negativity into faith in order to control and remain in power over the flock,
    that pisses me off. i think its good to have faith be it allah, jesus, budha whatever, just open your eyes and mind and definately your heart. read the small print and definately between the lines. george carlin had a interesting point on this” Think about it! Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of time! – But He *loves* you. he loves you and he needs MONEY. some how all powerful all seeing creator of everything supreme being, ,,,,,,,,just cant handle money

    funny man, kiaora cuzzy bro always good to hear from you brutha

    May 29, 2013 at 11:36 am

  6. kia ora, my bro cuz from Aotearoa .
    always appreciate your thoughts. yes, theres nothing that says “I love you,” like “Thou shalt love me with your whole heart…or else…”.
    But Manos our mutual bro, has given me a couple interesting books on Maori Christian thinking which meshes with traditional older Maori lifeways.
    WAY different then the cheaper “turn or burn” varieties that chased down our native nations here. These “christianity’s” don’t rant as much against our ceremonies as the used to, they have another approach . They “hang a feather on it” , accepting just enough “culture” to NDNize the otherwise very euro-centric religious traditions.

    May 29, 2013 at 12:19 pm

  7. Shé:kon, Sohahi:io:
    The hang a feather on it sounds a lot like the Broken Walls message that Jonathan Maracle, Terry LeBlanc, Richard Twiss and those guys follow. Basically in doing some work with some organizations awhile ago I had the chance to witness their add ” beads and feathers” to the gospel and everything now has become sanctified to be used in worship of God. The men still lead and call the shots but they are Native men. The drum is still used but it has been blessed so now it is the Abba Drum. Traditional songs that gave thanks to the Creator and created order have now been changed and new words in the English language have been added instead of traditional languages of our people. All this because none of them speak their language, none of them involve themselves in ceremonies with their own people. I knew them when they were died in the wool strugglers who had short hair and condemned their culture as being of the devil. Now they sport long hair and dress in traditional clothes and wear feathers and are well accepted by the non-Native Christian churches as the new revelation of the gospel to Indian people. I struggle with this concept because it basically says the revelation the Creator gave to us before the coming of the church was wrong and was not holy until it is sanctified using non-Native belief systems. Not to sound totally negative because if this method does help people come to follow Creator’s guidance and instruction to us as human beings, then it is good. But as for this being Aboriginal Christianity as it should be? My vote is it falls far short of the goal.

    May 29, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    • kweh Sakoieta,

      I know exactly what you are talking about. I was in China with these guys for a “Festival of the Arts” in ’99 (photo: ) (I’m off to THEIR right with the ribbon shirt).
      First i must say I felt they were sincere (Richard Twiss has recently passed on) but also sadly mistaken. I see a similar thing with Christian Rock,Christian Punk and Christian Rap culture. The mindset is “people of the FALL are perishing without a Savior”
      So ANY attempt “to save people from their sin and a certain hell” seems a genuine effort from their point of view. The problem comes as you point out well, with differing ASSUMPTIONS about reality. Middle Eastern beliefs are taught as “correct”.
      ex. Earth created faultless,perfect, first humans (to be “free”) were given choice of “obedience”…or “disobedience” resulting in unraveling a perfect world allowing child abuse, torture, murder, parasites just to mention a few.
      WITHOUT the FALL and resulting cursed earth as bedrock belief, many varieties of Christianity won’t work. A savior has to have someone to save. In comes: Replacement Theology! …the replacing of one paradigm (world view) with a foreign paradigm.
      You can can rock and roll, go punk,rap or funk, be wealthy capitalists, or be good little dancing Indians, whatever!…just come to Jesus…because “your ancestors were Adam and Eve who made a very very bad decision when they ate that fruit.”
      THIS is a major problem I have with what has been called the Contextualized Movement among Native Americans,and Islanders too. Hang a feather on it, do a Christian Haka , sing Amazing Grace in Cherokee, Put beaded crosses on your Pow-wow regalia
      We are supposed to remember own stories are replaced with … a Cursed earth by OUR ancestors sin!…BUT there is something we can do to escape damnation punishment….if we just believe St.Paul correctly…. 🙂

      May 30, 2013 at 4:18 pm

  8. amorangi

    kiaora brutha. weve(maori people) gone thru the same kinda feather and bead thing it back fired a bit. They brought the word and the book with it the message. The similarities in the word as for many endigenous peoples was the sales pitch that won us over. The mear fact that within this book are stories and factual evidense that these guys got the ear of god and that was it. But the big back fire for them was that we became more christian the christians. super duper believers, and they used that against us. In 1840 we signed the treaty of waitangi, the document that partnered us with the crown. We signed this pieces of paper because we not only got to keep our rights land and our everything but we did not see it as signing a contract with the crown, we saw it as signing a deal with god. the crown reps in new zealand reprisent queen victoria, whom being the head of the church of england reprisented god, you know god, jesus dad white beard lives up in the sky, that fulla. We were soon converting to christ and shedding our evil savage ways. pre 1840 we had the other great weapon that the euros bought with them. the musket. this started a the great time of death dealing, powerful chiefs remembered old hates and old insults and so began the musket wars of aotearoa. we are not taught about these things in our schools, nor any of that icky time. so armed with the musket and the bible we laid waste to one another. then came the biological weapons like flu and measles and a few sneezes later more mortality uncurible by our medicines and our devils witchcraft, so our people turned to the new comers cause they werent dying in the thousands it must be their god and he son. so yeah you notice any similarity. At the end of the day it is a great plan, briliant stradegy, and one of the main moves of colonisation. its the best way to destable a people in order to rule them and take what is theirs. Colonisation isnt an old technique, its just taken on a new guys. no longer is it christian promises bibles and influenza blankets. its mcdonalds and spring break( freedom and aid) its turned into the corporate monster fuelled on the potential money making and power that juleus caesar could of only dreamed. The ancestor of the mcdonalds frachise would have never contemplaited that one day my familys name and food would have more followers than budism, the corporate world is the new word of the modern day, so does that mean now that everything on this planet is so accessible that the people of earth are so connected now does this mean its come full circle and now we are all to be saved yet again, but not by god and his crowneys, we are to be saved the ronald the clown and he godly goodness. fuck me i feal like a bigmac. wouldnt it be cool if mcdonalds delivered

    May 30, 2013 at 12:21 pm

    • You are so right-on Amo. History shows the same thing all over the world. Indigenous societies had 1000s of years of established living and skirmishing with one another to set boundaries. When the gun-power came to all of us, it was TOO tempting to NOT bother with the skill of martial arts in hand to hand combat, but instead to kill an enemy from a distance. its whats happening today with drone strikes….”clean killing” no one gets bloody hands and the one who pushes the button walks from his computer station, goes home to wife and kids and plays war video games….( or watches RUGBY…HA!HA! had to add that one) disrespectful killing probably led to the brutal feuds you mentioned. Look at Africa today…modern weaponry makes killing so easy. Killing another person should be the hardest thing in the world.

      May 30, 2013 at 4:39 pm

      • That’s why we had such customs as counting coup on someone. There was no bravery in killing someone but to get close enough to touch them and then walk away was a totally different way of being honored.

        May 30, 2013 at 5:15 pm

  9. Excellent words, onkiatén:ron. Yep what doesn’t work in one hemisphere gets taken on the road and becomes the new snake oil that is sold in another. There are many of our people after hearing of this “new” style of Christian worship are falling for it as well there are many of our people who as you say, and I agree, are more Christian than the Christians and still follow their cultural understandings of how the Creator has worked with our people and we are to work with him and the natural created order, who reject this new found Christian beads and feathers approach. I personally believe when I sing our traditional songs that are songs of Thanksgiving that I do not need to change the words to English for the song to become Holy and redeemed and sanctified to God. I sing these songs as they came to us, in our own languages, which to me is speaking a language of Creation given to us as human beings. The church is and has been a corporation that has no relevance to the lifestyle we lead as traditional people. Coming from a communal perspective it is too individualistic and too prescriptive in it’s message to be of any use to us. That’s all I will put forth at this time otherwise I could easily spend the day writing a book here. 🙂

    May 30, 2013 at 3:53 pm

  10. Since I was a teenager, I’ve had a problem with the justification for heaven and hell and, indeed, for the existence of the God of my Protestant youth. Your questions made me smile and then laugh. If only the complex weren’t so simple, perhaps “religious” people would stop to listen to themselves, instead of to some manipulative leaders who want to be known as “the learned,” “the forgivers,” the “good” ones. I like what you’ve said here, Sohahiyoh. Thanks much.

    June 3, 2013 at 4:31 pm

  11. thanks Caitlin! I just wonder if most “believers” really even understand the implications of their beliefs?
    If people REALLY believed that most children on any given playground were going to roast for eternity (“many are called but few are chosen”) how could such “enlightened” live ONE single day with any measure of joy? We can’t even laugh and enjoy ourselves knowing a plane is going down in flames…let alone eternal flames.
    So my soft edge conclusion is most “believers” don’t really believe in eternal punishment as REALITY, they simply hold the DOCTRINE to maintain “correct belief”

    June 5, 2013 at 5:01 pm

  12. Wahsontiio

    I don’t know much at all about other religions but I have had discussions on the use of heaven and hell and the concepts in relations to Rotinonhsion:ni cosmology, epistemology and philosophy. I question the use of those words as the Mohawk words takthat are used to mean heaven and hell dont seem to carry the same meaning. Take heaven and its conceptual meaning…..the place the Creator lives and u can go if u live properly. Well, in the language it means in the sky or some say on the other side of the sky. What is on the other side of the sky…..the universe. I happen to agree with some very old individuals that believe we may have origins on another planet. and the reference to the other side of the sky is evidence of the concept of the pure existence being in that place. Only because it makes sense. How many religions talk of angels coming down from the heavens or divine visitors…..a lot. What are angels…..but beings from the sky or spirits. I believe Hell is a construct of Christianity for control of the masses as well. I think our Hell is to remain here on earth and not return to our place of origin.

    January 5, 2014 at 11:44 pm

    • Tižamęh (nya:weh) for sharing your beliefs Wahsontiio.
      Its great to read and contemplate different understandings

      January 7, 2014 at 1:45 am

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